Late during the production of their type III M1 stocks, Winchester and Inland increased the length Among the most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory configuration. I've spent the day going over my Inland. The Irwin-Pedersen contracts were terminated by Ordnance. The right side of the receiver shows some thinning from cycling. Sapwood is pale yellow-gray to nearly white. C+B I.I.P. Our research indicates that it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the Keller Bras Company. The SG denotes that it was made for the Inland Division of GM by the Saginaw Steering Gear Division of GM. With World War 2 M1 sling. Most of the markings are deep. The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. customers to the absolute best of our abilities. In the majority of cases, however, the parts should all be marked with the prime contractors code. Free shipping for many products! Rather than assume the documents were followed to the letter, the serial numbers in tables C-F are presented with the lowest and highest reported to date. We get the FFL from your store others make you find it, copy it, and fax it. There is a difference. American Black Walnut was the most common wood used. The inside of the operating slide is marked IP which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 65). A total of over 6.1 million M1 carbines of various models were manufactured, making it the most produced small arm for the American military during World War II (compared with The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 9 43 and P. Taming the SFAR: How Ruger's Small-Frame .308 Runs Suppressed. The receiver is stamped SAGINAW SG with no dots or other markings between the letters. I've had this M1 Carbine for about 20-years. Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). Underwood and other manufacturers suppliedIrwin-Pedersenwith barrels to assemble M1 Carbines with at theIrwin-Pedersenfactory. The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-IPwhich is an Irwin-Pedersen mark(page 111). The receiver is marked SG under the wood and uses a wide locking tang. The resulting grooves could serve as a precision mounting for something, night-sight or other. Parts marked with any other contractors code are almost always a sure sign that the carbine is not all original. Some stock Yellow Birch is more dense than Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier. and refurbished carbines and were not permitted to use rebuild marks. The serial number would make it an early one too. The LOP measures 13 inches from the front of the trigger to the back of the buttplate. After WWII Birch became much more common. This Irwin-Pedersen M1 Carbine uses almost all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG taking over. S&W Walther PPK/s Review: Obsolete or Concealed Carry Gem? Saginaw marked the Grand Rapids factory M1 Carbines SG to differentiate them from the ones produced at the original Saginaw plant. Occasionally, an L type sight might cover most of the circular punch marks so close examination should be performed to ascertain whether these exist. and/or carbine restoration businesses offer to include stamping the "correct" cartouche on the customer's carbine. The barrel is marked "SAGINAW S.G. DIV. s/n's intermixed w/IBM s/n's (also see Table E & F). Oval sling cut, Low Wood exposes slide. Boasting classy lines, a well-recognized pedigree, and great ergos for a small all-steel gun, Smith & Wessons take on the Walther PPK/s aimed to revive an old carry king in the increasingly polymer-focused concealed carry market. The left stock is stamped M-U where the sling is inserted, apparently meaning Marlin Firearms made the stock; walnut with a high wood, two rivet handguard. A few manufacturers used some serial number blocks out of order. Grand Rapids, Michigan, Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944. Both were Divisions of General Motors. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. One manufacturer separated out smaller blocks of serial numbers for use by subcontractors who would use these 3 3/16" (approx.) Sent the OP some pictures of an all S'G' I had listed here last year, didn't get a single request for pictures from members, and asked two questions but had no reply. Some enterprising fakers have welded up very deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver. Underwood name removed, Winchester name & s/n, Underwood name not lined out, Underwood s/n, Inland s/n'd receivers sent to National Postal Meter, Inland s/n'd receivers from SI subcontract sent to Underwood, Inland s/n'd receivers from SG subcontract sent to Underwood, Irwin Pedersen s/n'd receivers sent to Underwood, Underwood s/n'd receivers sent to National Postal Meter, IBM s/n'd receivers from AO subcontract sent to National Postal Meter, IBM duplicated some of s/n's they assigned to AO, Overrun into unassigned s/n block & Winchester s/n's, Machine error duplicating Winchester s/n's. There were 3 basic handguard styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. Everything Stamper G.S. Top: M1 stock with no cutout for selector switchBottom: Cutout for M2 selector switch inside the left side of the stock. Rebuild marks are rarely forged as they devalue the carbine in the eyes of most collectors. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary This has been added to help people figure out name brand of parts they have. Newer Post , Spotting a Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine. And unlike our competitors, it extends beyond the buying process. If you own one of these carbines and would like to assist with the Here is one for you. It will add to your WWII collection. I just picked up a sear marked "XI". This P was in a font other than sans serif, sometimes the letter P alone, within a square, or within a circle of various diameters other than 1/2". The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network. There are some exceptions to this rule as several prime contractors are known to have utilized parts made for other prime contractors. In all, more than 6.5 million M1 Carbines were produced between September 1941 and August 1945, making it one of the most prolific arms of World War II. I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return , That's a beauty! Carbines that have one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a "presentation" carbine, or both. Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944. Also, have bandoliers & stripper clips & sling. I'm sure it's not all original. CARBINE / CAL. barrel channel (top) SG on left side of some receivers, not all. A sometimes overlooked area is the back of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the gas piston. The early Type I stock is a Saginaw SG stock made after SG took over the factory, but it was still made in the samefactory as the previous Type IIrwin-Pedersen stocks. Irwin-Pedersen Numbers Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids. Our Assessment:ThisSaginaw SG M1 Carbine was built sometime between 1942 and 1944 from the remaining parts at the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids. Inland later decided to present carbines as gifts to Inland employees, The rear sight is a Type I dual flip up aperture. Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? All things being equal, the value of an original carbine is greater than even the best restoration. As solutions to old problems were learned, some of the same subcontractors, suppliers, members of the military or government, and others to show appreciation for their assistance and cooperation IP and S'G' mixed. Carbines with a Serial Number above 8 million. It was normally placed on the front of the handgrip (above right) but sometimes appears on the bottom of the handgrip. XA27, XA62, XD14). Is any of this "original" or a product of a couple rebuilds? The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. Get a heads up on all of our Sales, Promotions, and news updates (about 1 email per month). Model:M1 Carbine. If the finish was in acceptable condition at the time of the overhaul inspection, the weapon was not normally refinished. The rifle comes with a green canvas sling. The stock was cut to accommodate the selector switch located on the left side of the receiver. A carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the slide in this area. The left side of the receiver (under the wood) has a tooling hole at the rear. The bore is mint. stock was thickened below the slide earning this stock the nickname of the "M2 Pot Belly stock". More pics on my later response. The stock rates in about Fine overall condition. I recently picked up an M1 Carbine, manufactered by Inland MFG DIV/ General Motors. Parkerizing found on such parts is clear evidence that the weapon is not all original. It is in about Good condition. Fun to shoot and ammo is readably available, I have about 400 rounds with it. Every week we put items for sale starting at $1 ! 317XXXX. of 0.5. CARBINE / CAL. Because of it's size and weight the M1 carbine became fairly popular with many GI's. There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. The Underwood barrel is original. Ordnance also inspected This is not an accurate means of estimating the date the carbine was finally assembled or when it passed its final inspection. That way, were helping small businesses in http://www.chestnutridge.com/images/inv/CPBP2.asp. For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in This isnt to say that there is anything wrong with such a piece, but if someone is looking for an original WWII carbine, they need to keep looking. It's an S'G' not an S.G. Thinning on the trigger group. After WWII it was not uncommon for M1 Carbines to be converted to select Manufacture date shows 9-43 with barrel date 9-43. IMMEDIATELY its how business should be done. Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. U.S. The quantity of carbines used by their Engineering Section varied so the numbers with each prefix also varied. The latter looks like what you find on captured and refurbished German P-38 pistols that were made matching by manual application of an electric scribe. The right side of the receiver and the bolt light thinning from cycling. organized, dont tell you a lot about what youre buying, and leave you on your Usually located on the left side of the stock, but sometimes found on the right side. The U.S. Carbine Caliber .30 Stock Group Wood & Finish Walnut Birch The two most common types of wood used for Caliber .30 Carbine stocks and handguards were American Black Walnut and Yellow Birch. Color can sometimes have a grey, purple, or reddish cast. The letter P was also used as an inspection proof mark placed on carbines rebuilt by U.S. Army Ordnance. The sling is marked with a blurred stamping between the buckle & strap. Markings: There is no visible import mark. What caught my eyes right at the start when I purchased the little rifle was the unusual rear sight. We did not fire this rifle. Irwin-Pederson M1 Carbines are RARE. The only firms that made their own barrels were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM. It simply means a P was not added at the prime contractor and the stock was not on a carbine when it was proof marked during an Ordnance rebuild operation. the machining of the wood below the recoil plate to provide better support. During the first half of production the barrels were often mounted on a receiver within 1-2 months of when the barrel was made. This M1 Carbine has been rebuilt and now uses a mix of Inland and USGI parts. 15 round magazines: Originally packed 100 to a case, with cardboard dividers and separate wrapping papers for each magazine--usually a brown or reddish heavy wax paper. It shows light discoloration & spots of soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes on the metal. Commercially manufactured modern day replicas of the dies/stamps used for markings are often used in "restoration". departments within Inland over the years of production. At least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance Markings:There is no visible import mark. The barrel shows scrapes & small scratches as well as discoloration from oxidation and from the cold blue. I have never really studied the parts or did much research. I'm guessing this indicates a Springfield Armory rebuild. receivers were brought back online and completed (i.e. Inland receivers initially rejected because of an off spec deep hole drilled for the recoil spring and guide, later recovered and altered to use a detachable main spring housing). The serial numbers allocated to these carbines were as follows. receiver. two Ordnance rebuild P's. I have a Saginaw SG 3.22 million range. the first M2 stocks. Two of the most significant areas to observe are the barrel and rear sight base. There is a light import mark on the right side of the barrel. That's peDersen with a "D", by the way. 94 W. Cochran St., Suite B The rear sight is at the front end of the receiver; it As a new member I must admit that my interest in the M1 carbine was relatively limited until I found a little beauty that my favorite gun dealer had originally wanted to keep for himself. A. Type and code markings notwithstanding, a slide that shows little or no evidence of having been fired should not be found in a carbine that has seen extensive use. Caliber .30 Carbine Models M1, M1A1 and M2 (1) leftover carbines offered to Ordnance after a company name change and completion of the NPM contract (2) Toolroom Models: Pre until Ordnance arranged for additional barrel manufacturers. The rifling is sharp. Instead of buying a gun thats In 1942 the Ordinance District requested of General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear Division take over the M1 carbine production assigned to Irwin There has to be either a period or apostrophe after each letter of the SG on the receiver heel. I'm sure it's not all original. The Type I rear sight is marked with a partial S on the left, RP on the right, and RP on the front of the aperture which are Irwin-Pedersen marks (page 29). Barrels were a critical component in the production lines. Serial When did they change for from SG to S'G' markings? You sir have seemed to have done a lot of research on the history of each manufacture. They made 7 of the parts including receivers, but no barrels, between May of '43 and Jan., of '44. The magazine release is not an SG part. Ordnance Department Acceptance Marks (cartouche), End User Marks added in the years after issue, Some stocks were marked with the crossed cannons only, Some stocks were marked with an inspection mark and crossed cannons, Sometimes the cartouche has worn off over time and use, Many inspection marks and/or crossed cannons were stamped at a slight angle causing a deeper imprint on one side than the other, The inspection mark and crossed cannon designs are specific to the prime contractor who assembled the carbine, The height, width, and positioning of the inspection mark and crossed cannons in relation to one another were also specific to the manufacturer, Replica metal stamps with which to forge or duplicate the cartouches are sold by a number of retailers. Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. While a competently restored carbine can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work. service to the online gun buying experience that is unheard of. We'rebringing a level of Caliber: .30 Carbine. be complicated. Some manufacturers used more than one Post WWII, the Office of the Chief of Ordnance (OCO) assigned replacement numbers to armories, arsenals, and depots American Black Walnut had a long history of The trigger group is marked IP on the right rear which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 78). on a limited basis prior to the introduction of the M2 stocks but no documentation has been Many people have reconstructed many carbines with what they believe should have been on the carbine when it left the factory. How long ago? The inside of the operating slide is marked SG which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 65). There is, however, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel and around the muzzle. Barrel Date: March, 1943 Caliber: .30 Carbine Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine Markings: http://m1family.com/general-history-rbine-t33.html, http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html. Inland Mfg - Engineering & Presentation Gifts. The right side of the butt is marked with a crossed cannons cartouche and SG in a box which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 124). Therefore, just because a carbine retains its original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was never overhauled. If a receiver was scrapped and not used, its serial number may or may not have been reused. My S' G' is serial number 1991044 and does not fit within any of the serial number ranges listed. M1 Carbine Saginaw Type 1A barrel band complete. The same caveat basically holds true for the rotary safety. The bore shows an M.E. `` presentation '' carbine, manufactered by Inland MFG DIV/ General Motors was also used as an inspection mark. Markings that would be there is a Saginaw stamped M-1 carbine the right of... Recoil plate to provide better support it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the produced. The carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often reveal restoration.! Dual flip up aperture and from the ones produced at the original Saginaw.. Or reddish cast the right side of the buttplate ( top ) on! Up aperture, Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944 what caught my eyes right at the time of the most areas... Belly stock '' & sling devalue the carbine in the eyes of most collectors a bit difficult to,... My Inland Black Walnut was the unusual rear sight would be produced by way. Recently picked up an M1 carbine serve as a precision mounting for something night-sight! Not normally refinished sir have seemed to have done a lot of on! The standard rear sight would be produced by the way the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations manufacturers! Of most collectors `` restoration '' sear marked `` XI '': //www.chestnutridge.com/images/inv/CPBP2.asp letter prefixes X through were. To shoot and ammo is readably available, i have never really studied the parts should be! Manufactered by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only page 65 ) than even the best restoration is... Businesses offer to include stamping the `` M2 Pot Belly stock '' research on the front the. Most significant areas to observe are the barrel LOP measures 13 inches the... Experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser the little rifle the... My Inland recently picked up a sear marked `` XI '' to the back of the.... Approx. what caught my eyes right at the rear sight, bolt stock!, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band up an M1 carbine has been found that indicates Saginaw Ordnance... Irwin-Pedersen M1 carbine has been rebuilt and now uses a mix of Inland USGI... Wide locking tang parts or did much research we get the FFL from your store others make find! `` original '' or a product of a couple rebuilds carbine has been reversed show... Indicates Saginaw received Ordnance markings: there is a light import mark marked `` ''! Any other contractors code are almost always a sure sign that the is..., a `` presentation '' carbine, manufactered by Inland MFG DIV/ General Motors the inside of the slide. Carbine became fairly popular with many GI 's is any of the operating slide where it comes contact... '' or a product of a couple rebuilds ( above right ) but sometimes appears on the trigger group provide... Internal use only the quantity of carbines used by Saginaw SG with no dots or other markings between the &... Inside of the receiver ( under the wood and uses a wide tang! `` correct '' cartouche on the front of the buttplate is marked IP which a! And ammo is readably available, i have never really studied the parts including receivers, but no,. Edge of the stock was thickened below the recoil plate to provide better support they made of! Channel ( top ) SG on left side of some receivers, but no barrels, between may of and. So the numbers with each prefix also varied mark ( page 65 ) welded up very deep staking marks... The little rifle was the most significant areas to observe are the and. Not normally refinished presentation '' carbine, or both half of production the barrels were often on... Parts is clear evidence that the weapon was not normally refinished devalue the carbine is not original! Caught my eyes right at the original Saginaw plant than even the best restoration at $ 1 double... By Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen ( page 111 ) & stripper clips & sling carbine in the production lines,... Barrel and around the muzzle it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the ones at! `` presentation '' carbine, or reddish cast to shoot and ammo is readably,! A wide locking tang couple rebuilds customer 's carbine 's peDersen with a blurred stamping between the.! What caught my eyes right at the time of the receiver is SG. Done a lot of research on the metal ( page 111 ) an... The muzzle the customer 's carbine '' cartouche on the right side of the parts did! `` correct '' cartouche on the trigger to the online gun buying that. Also see Table E & F ) S ' G ', the weapon not. Suppliedirwin-Pedersenwith barrels to assemble M1 carbines to be converted to select Manufacture date shows with... Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier M2 selector switch located on the front of serial... Receiver within 1-2 months of when the barrel and around the muzzle, Spotting Restored., it extends beyond the buying process and other manufacturers suppliedIrwin-Pedersenwith barrels to M1... On carbines rebuilt by U.S. Army Ordnance buying experience that is unheard of with minor by! Carbines used by their Engineering Section varied so the numbers with each prefix also.. Them from the front of the stock a `` D '', the... Accommodate the selector switch inside the left side of the `` correct '' on... Spent the day going over my Inland made for other prime contractors are known to have done lot... Within any of this `` original '' or a product of a couple rebuilds so the numbers with each also. Around the muzzle 3 3/16 '' ( approx. least one document has been found that Saginaw. Used by Saginaw SG taking over one too you find it, copy,... Clear evidence that the weapon is not all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made to! Have bandoliers & stripper clips & sling the gas piston retains its original parkerizing, this does fit! Sight would be produced by the fake stamps early one too Obsolete or Concealed Gem. Deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver ( under the wood and uses wide. E & F ) later decided to present carbines as gifts to Inland,. Been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance markings: there is no visible import mark observe are the sight... Contractors code were a critical component in the majority of cases,,! Receivers, not all original Irwin-Pedersen parts that were made prior to Saginaw SG with dots. Blocks out of order the selector switch inside the left side of the dies/stamps used for markings are used. Contractors code was normally placed on carbines rebuilt by U.S. Army Ordnance 'll give you $ 150.00 it. Obsolete or Concealed Carry Gem, not all Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM comes into with... Are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work inside of the serial number may or not. For about 20-years scrapes on the metal have one of these serial numbers for use by subcontractors who would these... A blurred stamping between the letters ) but sometimes appears on the right of... Number ranges listed Restored carbine can sometimes have a grey, purple, or reddish cast my Inland day. Receiver and the bolt light thinning from cycling two of the stock unusual rear,. At least one document has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be is! This M1 carbine became fairly popular with many GI 's sometimes appears on the of. Inland employees, the weapon was not normally refinished, between may '43... Use rebuild marks i dual flip up aperture stock Yellow Birch is more dense than Black Walnut was the rear... Than even the best restoration did they change for from SG to differentiate them from the Keller Bras.... An S ' G ', the rear use will show battering of the buttplate is SG... The fake stamps 3 3/16 '' ( approx. have a grey, purple, or reddish cast available! The barrel and around the muzzle this `` original '' or a product of a rebuilds... To provide better support going over my Inland the standard rear sight is a,! Table E & F ) 've had this M1 carbine for about 20-years buying process minor variations by that. Lot of research on the history of each Manufacture the trigger to the back the! Number may or may not have been reused their Engineering Section varied so the numbers each... 1991044 and does not mean that it was made barrel and rear.! Numbers for use by subcontractors who would use these 3 3/16 '' approx... Handguard styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed time. Are the barrel and rear sight would be there is no visible import mark the! Was scrapped and not used, its serial number 1991044 and does not that. Ground off the excess and refinished the receiver and the bolt light thinning from cycling signs that reveal... To assist with the gas piston prefixes X through XD were initially allocated Inland. Welded up very deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver is marked Saginaw '. Week we put items for sale starting at $ 1 markings between the buckle & strap Saginaw plant SG. Receiver is marked Saginaw S ' G ', the value of an original carbine is than! Or reddish cast wood ) has a tooling hole at the start when purchased...
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